Discussion: Canon Mary Sues & Gary Stus

Discussion-Mary-Sues
Silhuoette vector from Freepik. Click for link. Graphic designed by me! Tangent: I actually really like this look, I’m tempted to change my logo into something similar.

Mary Sues was once a term used exclusively in fanfiction for original characters who appeared to be self-inserts of the author.  Increasing, it’s being adopted to refer to canon characters in a demeaning manner as well. It’s often said in reviews that those effortlessly perfect protagonist, the flawless chosen ones, are often too flat for us readers to truly connect with.

However, the general public seems absolutely gripped with some of these infuriatingly faultless characters.  I also used to be quite disdainful of Mary Sues – but as I read reviews, I realise some of the characters I love are deem to be too perfect for others.

So, is perfection in books truly alienating? Or is it an acceptable form of escapism?

nay

i.e. the super obvious list of why we are turned off by Mary Sues & Gary Stus.

  • Everybody Loves Bella Effect:  Every single character in the book seem to be convinced of of how utterly special and endearing the main protagonist is, though she’s unbearably bland (sorry Bella lovers!  The movies & the ensuing drama between RPattz + KStew provided me many hours of entertainment, if that helps any).
  • The Inspirational Mockingjay:  I adore Katniss, and characters like her e.g. Darrow of Red Rising – however, it’s a little hard to swallow how easily these confused teens becomes the symbol / empower the resistance; succeeding where half a hundred competent adult in their universe have failed.
  • The Love Polygon Magnets: All of our protagonists, from Bella, to Katniss, to Celaena – either self-proclaimed plain Janes to drop dead gorgeous beauties – unfailingly attract at least two suitors.  Always the most beautiful men in the series, of course.  I have my hands full just keeping the attention of one dude, how am I meant to relate to this though?
  • The Chosen One:  Whether it’s The Boy Who Lived or The Prince(ss) Who Was Promised, everyone in these books seem to have a super special destiny.  At 25 I barely have my life figured out (FOR SHAME)!  Why do you have a prophecy telling you what you should be doing and where do I get one?
  • The Physical Perfection:  Red hair, green eyes, skinny-curvy, inhumanly beautiful, the list goes on, and you totally know what I’m talking about!  My dark hair-brown eye combination have never felt as inadequate as when I’m reading a fantasy book haha.
  • Aggravating Lack of Flaws:  Cute-clumsiness is not a flaw, Bella!  Your self-assured arrogance is also not really a fault, Celaena!  The problem with perfection is the lack of room for delicious character development, and we all love that stuff.

yay

i.e. Why it’s good to read about these magical flawfree characters once in a while.

  • Escapism:  Life is filled with enough mishaps as it is, sometimes it just feels good to see your favourite character adored and succeed in thwarting He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named for the umpteenth time.  Many of the popular franchises have very faultless heroes and heroine, so I know I’m not the only one who thinks this!
  • When There’s Good Writing:  There are some characters such as Kvote of the Kingkiller Chronicles, who for all intent and purposes should be a Sue, but I love them anyway because of how solid the writing is.  If the character excels in everything, yet still have layers to their narrative, I can accept them wholeheartedly.
  • The Gender Issue:  On the whole, I feel that female authors + female characters get a lot more flak for writing perfect heroines than vice versa.  E.g. Bella Swan is a perfect every girl, but I can name a dozen male equivalent from the top of my head that is similar in feel – but don’t get nearly as much derision from the audience.  I don’t think I should be ashamed to enjoy seeing heroine sparkle and excel as much as she damn likes!

Are perfect characters an instant turn-off for you as a reader?  If you have some favourite Stus and Sues, please share them below!

59 thoughts on “Discussion: Canon Mary Sues & Gary Stus

      1. I never knew when’s the general blogging hour for most people but it’s 9.10PM around here and I’m pretty sure that’s not a blogging hour (because we all know bloggers are night owls ;p)

        How do you come up with all these amazing discussions??? It’s amazing how each discussion are as interesting as the next.

        THAT GRAPHICS. ALL THE YES. It’s so beautiful! I’d defo support you in using it as your logo heheh it suits you very much!

        And I agreed with most of the nays, It really is frustrating how we can’t relate to the hero(ine) but then I can’t relate to a character who are having too many mishaps in their lives as well (“oh noes i gots all the disasters and all the bad things that could ever happen to someone”) so I guess it actually goes down to how well the book is written and the mood I have for each character. In terms of escapism, initially I did agree to your point, but I thought that sometimes we don’t need sues to escape (plus we know Harry’s not a perfect sue, it’s that his luck is)

        Great read, great discussion. I should probably sleep soon since I have a whole dAY of classes tomorrow, eep!

        Liked by 1 person

      2. I’m glad my discussions aren’t getting boring!! AND YESS THANKS FOR YOUR SUPPORT I’m a bit scared of changing my layout but I am a bit bored with it, so I am still toying with the idea a little haha.

        I know the Mary Sue’s super speshul circumstances gets to me, like, get over yourself girl! But I wholly get behind escapism as well because that’s pretty much the point of fiction. I AM CONFLICTED AND CONFUSED. I am just gonna go ahead and like w/e I wanna like like I’ve always done.

        Sorry for the late reply I pretty much went to bed after making this post and today has been BUSY BUSY. ❤

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      3. Ooooh I’m excited for you new layout then! LETS BE CONFLICTED AND CONFUSED TOGETHER AND JUST READ WHATEVER WE LIKE AND FEEL AT THE MOMENT JUST…. READ ALL THE BOOKS!!! XD (Oh how I wish)

        Aww, don’t apologise! Hopefully you’re resting up! (Please do rest okay)(Take care ok)

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    1. My brand is more the morally ambiguous as well, but once in a while I like the land of fluff and to settle down with goody two shoes like Harry and co haha. Plus, it’s a bit harder to find the gray protagonists, sadly!

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      1. I don’t think Harry Potter was that much of a goody-two-shoes though. He went a bit dark in 6th year, when he became obsessed with Draco and tried to kill him in a bathroom thing.

        But I’d prefer a perfect character to a ridiculously self-centred who is heralded as the king/queen of being true to themselves when they are actually acting like an irresponsible brat who is going to get a lot of people hurt. That seems pretty common these days.

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      2. That’s true I totally wasn’t being fair on Harry and the golden trio.

        YES! Those selfish brats gets to me too, especially when everyone in their verse treats them like the sun is shining out of the arse. Thankfully, reviews have largely steered me clear of those books XD

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  1. I never really thought about it this way! But now that I do, I can totally see it! Lately I have been connecting more with characters that have visible flaws, whether they are in appearance or emotional/mental.

    But I do get the sense of escapism. Leaving your seemingly normal life behind for the perfect love, or adventurous life of our favorite story characters!

    Great read Aentee!! 😀

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    1. I only realised it when I saw a whole bunch of people criticise Darrow for being a Stu and I was like— I LOVE HIM! I favour the characters with emotional depth as well, but I don’t mind a bit of physical/skill perfection now and again haha.

      I read fiction to escape the Muggle world tbh, so I can get behind anyone who wants to live vicariously through a character – the Mary Sues totally has a role.

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      1. Darrow was a Stu??? Are people crazy???
        He was so 4 dimensional though! Even though he became “perfect” he still had a lot of struggles to overcome. I will fight anyone who disagrees! HAHA

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      2. I know right I was like he was ridden with flaws! He has trust issues and he’s cocky which costs him and he’s selfish to boots. Shaking my head. I think it’s cos of how godlike he became after the ‘makeover’!

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  2. I absolutely love your perspective on this issue and the fact that you discuss both sides to it. I’m writing a YA Fantasy, and one of the things that I worry about is whether or not both of my MCs suffer from this problem. What I appreciate about your take on this is that ultimately there is an audience for either side of the coin, so regardless of whether or not my MCs are a Sue and Stu (though I try to write them otherwise), the fact remains that every reader will interpret them and relate to them in their own way, like any character in a book, because I can’t please everyone. I can only write the story that’s in my heart and hope others will enjoy that. Thank you for writing amazing posts! I look forward to all of them. You’re seriously awesome!

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    1. Thanks Nicolette! You should definitely stick to what you want to write and what feels true to you at the end of the day 🙂 There’s an audience for everyone and there’s always going to be the occasional hater no matter how fantastic you are. So you do you, I totally support you <3!!

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  3. I think my biggest issue with Mary Sues/Gary Stus is that it sometimes feels like the author does it so they think they don’t have to work at building a character. I’ve read a few books where it was obvious the main character was bland because the author wanted you to envision the character as yourself as well but it just feels lazy.

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    1. Yes, I know exactly the kind of books you mean. Where literally anyone can be the character because they’re just the empty vessel for their fictional universe to love and adore and put on a pedestal. Those characters bug me because it’s not even possible to live vicariously through them, they’re just boring!

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  4. This is a very interesting post, Aentee and definitely very thought provoking. I like to read more about flawed characters who make mistakes and make poor choices at times because it’s realistic for that age group especially. At the same time, sometimes I’ll just think of it as fiction and ignore just how perfect the characters can be. Like you said, it’s fun to be able to see them get away with everything and never really make any mistakes. Of course, if every heroine was a perfect goddess who only made the best decisions then I probably would be bored with reading.
    Wonderful post, Aentee!

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    1. I think a balance is key – I don’t want all my characters to be suffering some awful life and self esteem issues, but like you said – a goddess that gets everything handed to her on a platter gets old super quick as well. At least there’s so many books out there, all our situations and needs are 100% covered 😉

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  5. I have seen someone on Twitter bashing JLA because of how everyone of her male characters were all six footers and has perfectly tousled hair. So I guess this issue is not totally ignored, maybe the readers just refuse to acknowledge that someone as perfect as the sues were nonexistent. Its after all a dream come true if someone like them will sweep you off your feet.
    I love this post by the way. 😉

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    1. To be fair those perfect male specimen are everywhere in paranormal fiction, so it’s sad to hear one author being bashed over it, boo! But yes, sometimes I just want to be left in peace and read my UF and swoon over the perfect men without judgement!! And love the perfect ladies without being viewed as shallow. We readers are capable of enjoying both the morally gray and the perfect, really! XD

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  6. My favorite characters are always the ones that have weaknesses. Which is why when my main girls exhibit fears or vulnerabilities, I’m all: “OMG YOU’RE REAL TO ME. YES.” To be honest (and I might be morbid because of it), I had been so much more inclined to like Bella Swan when she was undergoing her high-risk, almost suicidal actions throughout New Moon. I thought she had more personality in those scant few chapters than she did throughout the rest of the trilogy (Breaking Dawn not counted because I stopped reading the series after Eclipse XD). Not saying this is a healthy side of Bella, far from it, but there was always the hope that she’d grow out of it and move the frell on. It doesn’t happen that way, but eh…

    I love Celaena because she has vulnerabilities, and those vulnerabilities brought her low enough that she ended up working in a mine for quite some time before getting taken out of it. So I never really saw her as a Mary Sue. She may be close to one, because what can’t she do, right? I do think there’s still room for growth on her end in any case.

    As for Gary Stues…clearly they are beautiful and tall and hunkydory for us male-lovers to drool over. *cough* Okay, I’d probably say the same as I would above, only these days, even descriptions of how gorgeous the leading men are kind of bounce off me up until they’re shown to be doing something that makes them look gorgeous to me as a reader. I didn’t think much of people like Chaol or um, George Cooper or Jonathan of Conte (from Tamora Pierce’s Tortall series)–and phew, that Jonathan is supposed to be quite the looker–up until I got a sense of what their flaws were.

    I did just finish reading a steampunk book that probably best fits the discussion of Mary Sues and Gary Stues. The girls pretty much can fend off a pack of werewolves and undead with nothing but a bandolier of potions, a sack of inventions, and a sword. The guys are muscled and tattooed and magical and handsome debonairs, who can also wreak havoc against gods and demons. For some reason, I still enjoyed the darn book anyway.

    So I guess my answer to your question right now is nope. Perfect characters are not necessarily a turn-off. I find some of them charming, actually, lol! (This could honestly change for every book I read, so don’t hold me on that.)

    Also, great topic. XD

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    1. Usually my favourites are the ambiguous, the antihero etc as well – but I think it’s entirely acceptable to love a bit of fluff sometimes and no one should feel bad for it. I actually haven’t even read beyond the first Twilight books, and I know a lot of people who teases the series have seen nothing beyond memes — so to mock the fans are totally unfair and petty (Though I totally did that once, oops, I was horrible but I have learned).

      I actually did not like ToG *HIDES* FORGIVE ME. I am glad to hear that Celaena shows more depth though, CoM is on my TBR this month 😉

      Hehehehe they are made to be drooled over, you totally have the rights to objectify fictional male, I will fight anyone who challenges that right XD

      Me too, I can’t make up my mind, sometimes I see a Sue and I see red, but other times I just flat out adore them – not all Sues are made the same!

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      1. I liked Twilight well enough up until I got super disappointed with the third book. This was before all the craziness and hype towards the book started, though, so I was kind of glad I didn’t let the yay or nay-sayers influence my opinion on it.

        And omigosh. Not like ToG?! *gaspsputterdie* lol, there’s a lot of people singing praises over ToG I do sometimes get surprised that it’s not everyone’s cup of tea.

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  7. Really enjoyed reading your view on Mary Sues and Gary Stus! I don’t know if anyone notices, but John Green does it a lot in his books. Perfect characters are a turn off for me because it doesn’t feel very realistic. Perfect physical appearances probably annoys me the most. I constantly question why are characters so… attractive? Agree with your yay and nay points. I barely have my life figured out too! Great post idea 🙂

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    1. I haven’t read any of his books, but Manic Pixie Dream Girls = a Mary Sue in the form of a love interest, so I can see why you think that! Sometimes the unrealistic portrayal of these protagonist bugs me, other times I love the characters too much so I can forgive them for being so flaw-free. My life is barely figured out to the stage where I can’t even decide whether I am personally OK with Stus and Sues omg XD

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      1. Not even the Fault in Our Stars? Literally everyone loves that book. I’ve vaguely heard about Manic Pixie. Ah its the same with Looking for Alaska! Haha I agree with you on that point. I have to forgive Will Herondale for being so flawless! Well I guess if its written very well, it may be okay lol.

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    1. Great response! You totally have the right to dislike any characters that don’t fit in with the logic of the story or a stale protagonist who doesn’t change! They are the worst because they are boring D:

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      1. and they just make or break a story so if everything about the story checks out okay and only that particular character letting it down then that’s a shame.

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  8. Darrow is totally a Gary Stu. Yet I still love him. And I have also been thinking about Mary Sues vs. Gary Stus, and I do feel like I care less about male characters being perfect than female. I agree with frombeyoundinfinity’s comment about them being a dream come true HAHA. Though I wonder what other people think. Darn it Aentee you should’ve created a poll! Now my question will never be answereddddd.

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    1. I LOVE HIM TOO VAL! *high fives* We obviously have great tastes in fictional dudes. I know I regret not making a poll! My discussion post will never reach the conclusion! It seems an even split, some people can’t abide the perfection whereas others just want to be left to fangirl to their fave characters in peace without judgement, thanks!

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  9. Hmm, my definition of a Mary Sue and Gary Stu is actually when the character is perfect, but he cannot see it or believes him/herself to be useless. Flawed characters are not the same as Mary Sues (or its counterpart). Anyway, I had to add that. Great discussion!

    P.S.: Kvothe!!!! Katniss!!!! 😀

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    1. Oh yes, you have named what I deem to be the WORST and most annoying type of Sues and Stus. OMG shut up about how you are so plain/boring/useless, the author and the rest of the cast obvs does not think so. Urgh, thinking about them annoys me.

      Yay, I 100% approve both of Katniss and Kvothe’s perfection 😉

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  10. For me, it probably depends on the type of book I’m reading. Like if I were reading a superhero comic, I don’t really mind the characters being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu because superheroes are kind of inherently “perfect” but if I’m reading a dark contemporary, I want to explore the human psyche so flawed characters are a must 🙂 I also agree with you on the gender issue. I hear a lot of hate for Throne of Glass because Celaena is essentially “perfect” and she needs to have more flaws but it didn’t really bother me? Awesome post btw, Aentee! 🙂

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    1. Ooo you make a good point. It is very genre dependent, I seem to be a lot more generous with my Sues and Stus in the YA genre because I semi-expect them to be?

      Omg don’t get me started on ToG Carolyn, I am one of those rare non-fans *hides* I also think Celaena is too perfect while displaying little assassin talents in ToG. I hope it improves with CoM.

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      1. Lol, don’t worry about it, I didn’t like Throne of Glass either. I thought the story had so much potential but the execution was meh and the worldbuilding was so generic. Crown of Midnight is so much better!!! But then Heir of Fire was just ok..so this series is kind of a hit and miss for me. Hopefully Queen of Shadows is better.

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  11. Kvothe ❤ I can totally forgive him for being a Gary Stu, and I think the next book in the series will show more of his flaws so fingers crossed. I agree with all of the nays; I just finished Throne of Glass, and Celaena's major flaw is the lack of flaws to really balance her as a character. I think what I don't like about these characters are they are two-dimensional. Throw whatever dilemma or tragedy at their faces and they still come out on top with barely a scratch. I think the flaws make them human in a sense, that given their set of abilities they still manage to come out on top. It's inspiring to read and more relatable.

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    1. Kvothe was great in TNOTW but I had to graduate him to Stu status when I read WMF. I hope that in Book 3 he will return in top form!!

      I agree, I want my characters to have conflicts that changes them in some fundamental way, otherwise it’s no fun!

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  12. For me it’s entirely dependent on the author’s writing ability. If the story carries me along then I don’t mind as much. I usually only notice awfully/perfect characters when the writing is lazy and the plot stinks. Although I absolutely agree with the Katniss comment in a lot of dystopias. I still loved the Hunger Games books and the films, but I think that she’s not solving or leading a revolution so much as she’s a symbol and everyone else is doing all the work. It’s not like there weren’t people already revolting and enraged with the government. Katniss is “special” because she had the balls to screw with the games, which to be fair she didn’t even have much of a choice about. Her actions with the berries were more reactionary, rather than the spark of a revolution. Everyone was unhappy before, but her public display of disobedience provides an outlet for people in every district to discuss their misfortune. If anything she’s more of a feisty puppet. By the last book there’s a definite shift in her thinking, but she’s still not the brains or muscle behind the revolution.
    In any case, great post!

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    1. You make a great point Ellie! I think it is very writing dependent. If the book can make me believe that this character is the bee’s knees and they are the perfect protagonist for me, I don’t mind their overbearing specialness and perfection e.g. Dany of ASOIAF. I totally agree about Katniss, but I think in Book 3 the fact that she was more a symbol than a character of agency during the revolution was examined a bit, and for that I still love her. Thanks for your insightful comment!

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  13. THAT GRAPHIC IS DELICIOUSLY GORGEOUS AND I SUPPORT CHANGING THE HEADER INTO SOMETHING SIMILAR. (Even though your current header and colour scheme is also lovely.)

    And yassssss. You totally had wonderful points everywhere here, and I totally back the last pro because I read a feminist Tumblr post about that a while back and IT IS SO TRUE. I mean, I can name SEVERAL male characters who have such bland personalities but are still popular, and no one gives them flak for it! I think boys who were Gary Stu-ed by fanfiction still get some criticism, but canon ones are let go much, much more often. WONDERFUL post, Aentee!

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    1. Thanks Alyssa! I am seriously considering a blog redesign so I am glad you approve!

      AND YAS! James Bond had a love triangle in literally every single movie he featured in, I don’t see anyone hating on him as much as they hate on heroine targeted at teen girls?

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  14. I really like the look of the logo of this post as well, so if you want to change your blog’s logo into something similar I’d say go for it 😀 Also great post! The biggest nay for me is the everybody loves Belle effect. I remember reading the book and thinking ‘why does everyone like her??? Why are three boys in love with her???’ There is barely any personality to like :/

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    1. I know right, I get really annoyed at bland characters who are just basically there to be love – author self-insert makes me side eye a little.

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  15. If you don’t mind what font do you use for the this post? I love that type of font and have seen it around and am unable to locate it. 🙂 Thanks to you I’ve become addicted to freepik!

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    1. They are all commercial fonts, I used a mixture of Portabello, Asterism and Backlash! I think they are $20 each normally? I got them in a special deal for really cheap a while back but the deal is expired now 😦 You can just search on dafont or 1001fonts for free alternatives. Search under handwriting fonts.

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  16. I’m loving this discussion series you have going on! LIKE HOW DO YOU COME UP WITH SUCH AWESOME TOPICS? (That was just a rhetorical question of course. I know you’re just cool beans, haha.)

    For me, I definitely lean more towards the flawed but special characters if that makes sense. It also helps if I like them (I don’t often root for villains). And I often enjoy characters that I feel are similar to me in real life; there’s just an instant connection with those especially if the story and writing are both well done.

    And I really like your blog banner/logo, but give the pretty glamour silhouette a try if you’re into that look! It’s very pretty!

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    1. Thank you Summer I am glad you are enjoying my discussion posts still, at this stage I always fear people think I am being spammy haha.

      I love the flawed characters as well, I identify most with Asian protagonists so I totally understand where you’re coming from in wanting to find characters similar to yourself!

      I am very enchanted by the idea of the sihuoette, but so many people uses it *backs away from the idea* PLUS I AM TOO LAZY TO CHANGE THINGS UP XD

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      1. Oh gosh, I don’t think anyone regards your posts as spam! It’s quite the opposite probably-I know it is for me. I just hope you don’t get too burned out from the blogging (as we’ve talked about before)! But I’m so glad you’re having fun.

        AND HAHA, ME TOO. I think the only thing keeping me from changing mine is the fact that my theme is very aqua inspired, so I’m not feeling up for the change in color scheme and trying to fit everything to that. 😛

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  17. This is such an interesting discussion. I’ve been thinking about it a lot myself lately. I think how much you can tolerate a Mary Sue is to do with how much of her you’ve read lately. I just read two YA series starters back to back that both featured the whole this girl has been sent to save the universe thing AND all the hot boys are in love with her and by the end I could not stop my eyes from rolling.

    It’s a shame, because it does put me off reading fantasy sometimes cause I’m just so fed up with it. Have you read Maureen Johnson’s Shades of London series? I think she navigates the whole issue pretty well. Rory, the protagonist in those books, is one of the least annoying girl at the centre of the drama reads I can think of.

    Also – kind of related – does anyone else get annoyed by the fact that the main physical flaw of 90% of female YA protagonists is ‘too skinny’? Ugh.

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  18. I’m usually able to endure a Mary Sue or Gary Stu but I definitely can’t when all of the “types” you listed are combined. Being ridiculously perfect is one thing but if they are also in the middle of a love polygon and have some speshul snowflake power then I just want to throw the book out the window.
    You mentioned Bella Swan a lot and I do think that she comes off as a Mary Sue but I always thought she acted really confused half the time LOL. So I guess, to me, she came off as more stupid, and thus I didn’t think of her as a Mary Sue.
    “I have my hands full just keeping the attention of one dude, how am I meant to relate to this though?”
    TRUE. I think if I had to deal with a love polygon, I’d end up punching both dudes in the face. Why must the protagonist like both of them?!

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  19. This post is perfect and I agree with everything! Normally I don’t have any particular feelings towards picture perfect MCs, but I can easily understand why some have problems with such characters. I personally think that such MCs are the ideal female – who’s beautiful, brave and successful – and for those readers who want to escape real life, these type of characters are a welcome distraction. Come on, would we like to read about a girl, who has no special talents and no desirable qualities as our heroine? Of course, not!:)
    Wonderful post Aentee!

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  20. I think certain elements of the Mary Sue/Gary Stu equation tend to bug certain people more than others, but the overall dislike for them is because we’ve seen too many nearly identical combinations of all these “perfect” factors. That’s the real kicker: it feels like we’re looking at clones and nothing new is being done. According to my old writing professors, it’s impossible to write anything new, but we can write old ideas with a new or unique twist. The more Sue-factors you use, the harder it becomes to diversity from the (large) pack utilizing the same formula. But good writing that takes these formulaic elements and either twists them in an interesting way, or at least writes them in a way we enjoy, can get away with it. Great post!

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